tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post2223003779068982365..comments2023-07-18T18:25:48.399+03:00Comments on Akritas Macedonian blog: A reader comment Pr. Tompkins arguments as regards the known letter that sent and cosign from 315 world scholars.Akritashttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05564034383394082659noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-18949297352868382982010-04-06T06:26:36.914+03:002010-04-06T06:26:36.914+03:00Anonymous @ January 21, 2010 3:37 AM,
your slav k...Anonymous @ January 21, 2010 3:37 AM,<br /><br />your slav kin massacred thousands of autochthonous Greek Macedonians in the Region of Macedonia, during WWII. I have many, many stories of what your kin did to my fathers family in Greek Macedonia.<br /><br />Your lying and scheming forefathers who lived in Greece, accepting Greek citizenship turned against their chosen country at the first opportunity and wore the Bulgarian military uniform and set off fighting alongside their Bulgarian kin, who were with the German Nazi axis. That is your forefathers were despicable traitors. And now you expect us Greeks to show any sympathy to you. Pathetic, utterly pathetic.<br /><br />Your kin were given the opportunity to leave to and resettle where they thought they had their strongest ethnic conscience after the Balkan wars, just like the Greek people were required to do, and they did. You're kin was no more singled out than the Greeks were.<br /><br />So stop attempting to pursue the line that you were the only victim. You were NOT. We Greeks have as many stories and more, about your forefathers despicable crimes against the Greek Macedonians that we can also tell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-11695590645762314082010-01-21T03:37:26.216+02:002010-01-21T03:37:26.216+02:00I am Macedonian. Not Greek, not Hellenic, not Hel...I am Macedonian. Not Greek, not Hellenic, not Hellas, etc. My father and mother were both born in Macedonia, one in Vardar and the other on the border of Pirin and Agegan.<br /><br />And you to whomever created this blog, let me say this: And no one, has the right to deny me of my God given right to self-determine myself as a MACEDONIAN not you the creator of this blog, not the Greeks, nor anybody else. I will not let it happen.<br /><br />I have family friends whose grandparents in 1904 living in Solon whose family lived there for 100's if not 1000's of years, were told to do one of three things:<br />1. Change your name from Petrov to Petroloupos.<br />2. Leave.<br />3. Death.<br />They chose to change their name -- even though a gunning was in their back, they weren't going to leave their land.<br /><br />After WWII, my grandfather, an old man at that time, was imprisoned because he kept his name, Naumovski. He didn't change it and if the Greeks felt like killing an 70 year old man, they would have instead of letting him rut in jail for years.<br />My 3 uncles were beaten and tortured. Why? Because they're Macedonians.<br /><br />You act like the father in My Big Fat Greek Wedding. Greeks = all good. Every group of people has their ugly past and try to run away from it. You can't run away from Goce Petroloupos. He videotaped what he saw, what he experienced, the horror after the First Balkan War when Greece, Bulgaria, and Serbia all took over the region of Macedonia from the Ottoman Empire. If all Macedonia is Greek, why didn't the Greeks take all of the land? Why didn't they -- because all three people saw it as a land grab, a scheme to get more power. But Goce Petropoulos videotape is still here. His kids and grandkids were not murdered by the Greeks. They can tell you what happened, they can show you the big lie.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-44634668441201568092009-06-25T06:50:26.273+03:002009-06-25T06:50:26.273+03:00...cont...
"But there is no evidence that th......cont...<br /><br />"But there is no evidence that the inhabitants of the Republic of Macedonia aim to prevent any use of the term “Macedonian” in Greece, which is what the extremist language (“diminished… rights of self-determination”) claims.""<br /><br />Dan, you just have to take a look at what is being written by the citizens of the FYROM on Alun Salt's blog (http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/macedonia-from-bad-to-worse/<br />) to see what their attitude is. The language "diminished… rights of self-determination" is not extremist language at all. I noticed you said "diminished… rights of self-determination", rather than "diminished… *equal*-rights of self-determination", the equal part seems to have been conveniently excised. I ask what gives you the right to assert that the Greeks are forbidden to be passionate about this matter, and how they feel?<br /><br />"The three vilayets – Salonika, Monastir and Kosovo – made up the region “Macedonia” from the early 1900s onward (see Livanios); the Republic of Macedonia, formed parts of these vilayets, was not a country until 1991."<br /><br />Yes, Dan, and in this region there lived also a number of other ethnicities that were not Slavs, that also consider themselves Macedonian, and wish to use this appellation, without being immediately associated with the Slavic cohort. Dan, stop conflating the facts, the way you present it, is as if no one else existed, that "La Salade Macedoineis" of ethnicities did not exist. <br /><br />"Iconoclast presents a numbered list of claims the point of which is that people who think of themselves as Macedonians and live in a region long called Macedonia may not call their state by the name, Macedonia, because this some how damages citizens of the Greek province of Macedonia. "<br /><br />Wrong, Dan, that is what you said, now if you see what I said it was:<br /><br />"All they need to do is share the name, in a way which distinguishes themselves from all others who also consider themselves Macedonians, but do not want to be identified by others as being related to the Slavs, of the FYROM, in any way, shape, or form. The Greeks will not, in no way, back down on this matter, period!" (see http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/macedonia-from-bad-to-worse/#comment-39253)<br /><br />"Iconoclast throws in the dread term, “irredentism,” without a word about the form irredentism might take, and without considering that continued condescension and hostility will spur, not reduce, irredentist fervor in the state to the north."<br /><br />Dan, please see my above ripostes regarding the irredentism question you keep on raising.<br /><br />"Iconoclast claims that the Republic of Macedonia is “monopolising the name.” That would require denying the right of others to use the word – which is the opposite of what’s happened. Noone I know in the Republic of Macedonia “denies” any Greek of his or her “God given right to self-determine myself as a Hellene (Greek) and a Macedonian.”"<br /><br />I don't know about you Dan, but I posit that you don't need to be a rocket scientist, to conclude that when the FYROM call themselves, in the international community, by the appellation "Republic of Macedonia" or "Macedonia", it's a monopoly, no ifs or buts! I don't think a smart-alecky approach serves your purposes very well.<br /><br />"Indeed, I shall say right now that I believe Iconoclast is probably a Macedonian (since we don’t know who he or she is, we cannot be sure). That’s a good thing. But it has never been at issue"<br /><br />Well, thank you very much indeed Dan, I really do appreciate that you have gone out of your way to recognize my equal-rights of self-determination to call myself a Macedonian, and a Greek. I agree, that it is a good thing. Now explain this to your acolytes, of the FYROM, so they can understand.iconoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-57356482563663466732009-06-25T06:49:27.579+03:002009-06-25T06:49:27.579+03:00...cont...
"It is unclear what Iconoclast di......cont...<br /><br />"It is unclear what Iconoclast disputes here: I mentioned the “forceful suppression” of Slavic Macedonians in Greece, mentioning a Greek source."<br /><br />Dan, this was during a state of war (WWII), our country, Greece, was attacked. These people who you support, took up arms, aligned themselves with the Bulgarian Military, who were allied with the German axis and started fighting against Greece. These people were traitors in the eyes of the Greek state. They were citizens of Greece who fought with the invaders against the Greek state, and then directly after WWII, during the Greek civil war, they also fought on the side of the communists, once again against the Greek state. They fled Greece, on their own volition, because they knew, that if they were to have stayed, they would have been charged as enemy combatants and put up against a firing squad for treason. In fact, nowadays, these individuals and their sympathizers would be categorized as terrorists!<br /><br />"“there is no logical or rational justification to take a cognitive leap towards a proposition that the Ancient Macedonians have any relationship, whatsoever with the Slavs,”<br /><br />which is one reason I did not."<br /><br />Dan, please explain that to your Slav acolytes, of the FYROM, so they can understand it as well. That way they can stop making bizarre assertions that have no scientific foundation, ego, my min-lecture on science, so that they understand how science works.<br /><br />"I provided references, and Iconoclast ignored them. See the “Letter.” "<br /><br />Yes, Dan, but you did not list the references you were referring to in that posting, I wanted to know who specifically you were referring to.<br /><br />"I have no dispute with the quotation he provides from Danforth"<br /><br />I'm really glad, now explain this to your Slavic acolytes, from the FYROM.<br /><br />"I repeat, that great powers and neighbors had every reason to deny Macedonian identity, and that the evidence appears to be that the sense of identity expanded in the 20th century, largely, as Mazower says, due to the “combined idiocies” of Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria."<br /><br />Yes, yes Dan, your back to your conspiracy theory again, are you? You seriously want us to accept this on face value, where you have no evidence, but just want us to accept what you say as gospel. Moreover, Dan, when did these Slavs have a sense of identity? It was not during the 1912-13 Balkan war, it came much later than this period, so what! That does not mean, ex post facto, they can attempt to claim an entire geographical region of Macedonia, in which they were only one (and one that did not even have a strong sense of their own of ethnic consciences at the time) out of a number of ethnic cohorts of "La Salade Macedoineis" is an absolute and laughable joke.<br /><br />"Noone holds a franchise on the name “Macedonian.“ Some people on both sides claim it is “holy.” So they don’t like it when others use it."<br /><br />Precisely, Dan, and so why do the Slavs, of the FYROM, think they believe they have a franchise, you only have to open your eyes and see the actions they have taken and are taking, and read what is written by them in Alun Salt's blog (http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/macedonia-from-bad-to-worse/<br />).<br /><br />"I have no dispute with Loring Danforth’s finding that “Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a Macedonian and who outspokenly and unambiguously called for Macedonian linguistic and national separatism, acknowledged that a ‘Macedonian’ national identity was a relatively recent historical development.”"<br /><br />Yes, Dan, but one individual doesn't create a national ethnic conscience either, so let's get serious here!iconoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-67162672475954654272009-06-25T06:48:35.850+03:002009-06-25T06:48:35.850+03:00...cont...
"All census reports are done by g......cont...<br /><br />"All census reports are done by governments and often – since the time of Maccabees – serve the interests of governments. That is one reason the numbers in censuses of Macedonia seem unreliable to historians like Livanios (pp. 6 on the Ottoman census of 1904, and 25 on the unreliable Greek census of 1928)."<br /><br />Truly unbelievable, where do you get this manufactured sophistry from Dan? Now we're meant to believe in some trumped up conspiracy theories, what next? Dan, this is a fairly desperate move on your part, you do realize this! Even if we were to take your argument on its face value, and believe that the Ottoman census and all the combined foreign (U.S., Germany, Austria, U.K., France) diplomatic communications were completely unreliable, it is one thing to be unreliable, and entirely another, for a census and all communication to completely and entirely ignore an ethnic Slavic cohort. Furthermore, you give no rational reason why the Ottoman Empire would have singled out and targeted only this Slavic cohort, why Dan, give us a reason why? Let alone, a strong and cogent reason why all the foreign powers would have also ignored them? What interest did they have in pursuing such a highly co-ordinated tactic, why Dan? In fact, the Ottomans were more interested in maintaining as much of a heterogeneous ethnic mix in each Vilayet as possible. This tactic aided the Ottomans, in so far as, it made it easier for them to maintain control and power. So, it makes more sense for them to add as many ethnicities as possible, not the opposite! On this basis your argument is not at all cogent. Even if we assume your argument is sound and cogent, then if the census information is irrelevant for the Greek argument, it then equally implies that the Slavs can not assert anything either. That is, the Slavs, of the FYROM, can neither provide evidence demonstrating that they were a majority in this region, since we have no way of knowing either way. Save what has already been said, and applying Occam's razor, the simplest reason why they were not listed on the census is that the ancestors of the present day Slavs, of the FYROM, during this epoch, had not even established their own ethnic conscience, but rather they had a stronger affinity towards their Bulgarian brethren, and considered themselves Bulgarians. I note, you have also agreed with this conclusion. So, you can't blame the Greeks for that. <br /><br />Furthermore, Dan, answer me this question, where was this cohort of Slavs, who so strongly believed in their ethnic conscience during the 1912-13 Balkan wars? Why did they not stand up and be counted, and fight for what they believed in? The reason is, that the Slavs, during the Soviet era established their ethnic awakening for reasons more to do with Soviet propaganda, long after the Balkan Wars, and now, ex post facto, they want to make claims on a geographical region from the victors of the 1912-13 Balkan wars. This is bizarre, to say the least. Even if we take the hypothetical case that they did have an ethnic conscience at that time and they did fight, they obviously were not victorious. Well, sorry to say it, but tough luck! That's life. That's what wars are like. There are winners and there losers. This is a truism that has been, is, and will always be the case through out the ages. These people are crying over spilt milk. But what is even worse still, is that the spilt milk that they are crying over, they didn't even participate in its spilling! How utterly undignified of them.iconoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-21602914782143998942009-06-25T06:47:50.190+03:002009-06-25T06:47:50.190+03:00...cont...
"In the meantime, Athenian anarch......cont...<br /><br />"In the meantime, Athenian anarchists are reportedly getting arms from Albanian sources, not the Macedonians who are regularly put forward as Mormo figures."<br /><br />Dan, I don't know what your on about, but the anti-capitalist cohort, of mainly, students had been lobbing home-made Molotovs and damaged shop-front windows. So Dan, what you have insinuated is once again outright disinformation. I suggest you concentrate your interests at the current instability that exists between the 25+% Albainian minority in the FYROM and the Slav majority.<br /><br />"My point was that many in the Republic of Macedonia had ancestors who lived in what is now Greek Macedonia. They did not leave for tourism."<br /><br />Yes Dan, but my point equally is that many in Greece had ancestors who lived in what is now the Southern geographical region of the FYROM, around the town of what was then called Monastiri, now Bitola. These Greek Macedonians also did not leave for tourism either! Moreover, Dan, you might want to spend more time reading than writing, so as to realize that after the Balkan Wars 1912-13 there was a massive population exchange throughout this entire region, between Serbia-Greece (note: the now FYROM was part of Serbia at that time), Bulgaria-Greece, and later a forced exchage between Turkey-Greece under the treaty of Laussane in 1923. The Greek state gave all those who did not feel they had a Greek conscience, or affinity, the opportunity to leave for countries to which they felt that they had the closest ethnic affinity, that is, either Bulgaria or Serbia. Those that did remain were to be recognized by the Greek state as Greek citizens, and these people knew this in advance. Likewise, Serbia and Bulgaria initiated reciprocal population exchange policies within their own states. So, now, that I have said that, Dan, your point is somewhat moot, wouldn't you say?iconoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-51470647097430915812009-06-25T06:42:20.941+03:002009-06-25T06:42:20.941+03:00Dan, I have taken the liberty to respond to your l...Dan, I have taken the liberty to respond to your last post here http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/macedonia-from-bad-to-worse/#comment-39281 <br /><br />Dan you say:<br /><br />"Dan: no. I just gave my arguments to a group of professionals. So far, they’ve responded positively."<br /><br />Gosh, really, truly. Is that all you can say.<br /><br />"Wow. A mini-lecture on scientific method and static apriorism. Iconoclast might have done better to write less and read more, for instance in the sources and arguments that I provided and he ignores about ethnic formation, and to have noted that I warned Prof. Miller he was on a bad scholarly track three months ago."<br /><br />Yes, Dan, I thought it would have been a wow event for you and your acolytes, from the FYROM.<br /><br />Dan, you shouldn't dismiss this so flippantly, especially when it is clearly obvious that your good self and your acolyte Slavs, of the FYROM, clearly are exhibiting agnotological tendencies. So a bout of reality of back to the basics, I would "hope" set you on the right path.<br /><br />"In some ways that is very true and commendable. But important issues remain. The Greek foreign ministry continues to assert as a matter of faith that there are no ethnic minorities in Greece, for instance; and there is the NATO veto, etc"<br /><br />Dan, what minority are your referring too?<br /><br />Dan, you obviously don't know how things work. Greece did not veto the FYROM, rather, she convinced *her* NATO allies to withhold an invitation to the FYROM to join the NATO, for very legitimate reasons, in which the NATO thoughtfully considered, and agreed with Greece's position. Save what I have just said, Greece would also be fully in her rights to use her veto if she deemed so necessary.<br /><br />Dan, it takes two to tango, Greece is on the dance floor, but her partner has stood her up!<br /><br />"True enough but exactly how this might work remains very vague. It was that vagueness that crippled many arguments of the Greek govt in the 1990s (see Zahariadis’, JMGS, 1996: “these claims were tenuous and implicit and … depended on a chain reaction of events that was neither clear nor probable”"<br /><br />Dan, I suggest you might want to read the book titled the Black Swan, by the author and philosopher Nassim Nicholas Taleb to see why Greece is very well in her right to take such a stance. Some excerpts from Dr. Tableb's book are below.<br /><br />"A BLACK SWAN is a highly improbable event with three principal characteristics: It is unpredictable, it carries a massive impact, and after the fact, we concoct an explanation that makes it appear less random, and more predictable, than it was. The astonishing success of Google was a black swan; so was 9/11."<br /><br />"Just imagine how little your understanding of the world on the eve of the events of 1914 would have helped you guess what was to happen next. (Don't cheat by using the explanations drilled into your cranium by your dull high school teacher.) How about the rise of Hitler and the subsequent war? How about the precipitous demise of the Soviet bloc? How about the rise of Islamic fundamentalism? How about the spread of the Internet? How about the market crash of 1987 (and the more unexpected recovery)? Fads, epidemics, fashion, ideas, the emergence of art genres and schools. All follow these Black Swan dynamics. Literally, just about everything of significance around you might qualify."<br /><br />So Dan, just because some so called "experts" can't seem to come up with a scenario, does not mean that one (a Black Swan event) does not exist. Just imagine how little your understanding of the world in 2009 would help you guess what may happen next, not much! So, Dan, sorry to say, but your way of thinking is very naive. I suggest you read the book to understand how the real world actually works, as opposed to how you may think it works.iconoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-20526942846729971982009-06-25T06:41:54.744+03:002009-06-25T06:41:54.744+03:00As a convenience to the readers, I have taken the ...As a convenience to the readers, I have taken the liberty to duplicate my reply to Dan Tompkins last reply on http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/macedonia-from-bad-to-worse/#comment-39281 at Alun Salt's blog here below.iconoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-46758897380264673022009-06-24T11:40:31.673+03:002009-06-24T11:40:31.673+03:00Dan Tompkins, I have also replied to your last rou...Dan Tompkins, I have also replied to your last round of your comments http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/macedonia-from-bad-to-worse/#comment-39281 at Alun Salt's blog. <br /><br />My reply can be found here:<br /><br />http://modern-macedonian-history.blogspot.com/2009/05/letter-to-president-barack-obama-as.html#comment-formiconoclastnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-77019122428609241622009-06-19T13:36:44.060+03:002009-06-19T13:36:44.060+03:00It's important that the Greeks, as in this pos...It's important that the Greeks, as in this post, reply to the hate-filled, billious and ignorant rantings that one finds on the typical slav-macedonian diaspora sites with calm reason, clarity and even some sympathy. Slurs and vitriol are self-defeating in the end. What's the poit in arguing if we are no better than they are?Alfred di Genishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10749751984852302959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-24118651829050581632009-06-18T10:50:08.797+03:002009-06-18T10:50:08.797+03:00Thank you Pr. Tompkins for your remark.
I am sure ...Thank you Pr. Tompkins for your remark.<br />I am sure that the readers have already read your answers in the archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com as also and thiconoclast last thesis since the adm of the blog as I understand has closed the "comment box" with the known result.Akritashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05564034383394082659noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-38098280.post-21299877730280968212009-06-18T10:41:18.621+03:002009-06-18T10:41:18.621+03:00This discussion continues. See
http://archaeoas...This discussion continues. See <br /><br />http://archaeoastronomy.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/macedonia-from-bad-to-worse/#comment-39281<br /><br />and other posts at that site.<br /><br />Dan TompkinsUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16826825418446440750noreply@blogger.com